And theres good progress. I carry that with me when Im out in the world and Im misgendered. A woman can have a beard and be a woman, but someone can have a beard and also be non-binary. When I saw you bring out the jar I assumed youd be a vegan.I try to have as little a footprint as possible. Billions or Orange Is the New Black?They are literally so different. And then when I was cast as Taylor, it felt like the shorter buzz just felt right for the character, honestly, so thats why Ive maintained it. Were still getting very specific visions of what it means to be non-binary, and where that person can be situated in a narrative. Of the rest, only Amber. I feel lucky to be writing this. Why is it important to you to identify as nonbinary rather than to just expand the definition of what woman can mean? The nonbinary actor, who plays nonbinary characters in Billions and the new John Wick film, wants to expand the conversation around gender identity, onscreen and off. And when it comes to non-binary identities, I think that also just holds true: White non-binary actors white characters, really, and thats really what this is. The statistics are staggering. "I hit a rock in my journey in 2017 when I thought I wasn't transgender because I thought that people were pushing me to be transgender. (Laughs.) 55 Non-Binary People Explain What "Non-Binary" Means To Them. But what the 33-year-old gets asked about perhaps most frequently is gender identity: Dillons is nonbinary, with the preferred pronoun of they.. Asia Kate Dillon's Role on Billions Helped Inform Their Own Gender Identity. ', 3 dream interpretation tips, from a psychotherapist, Mental health of LGBTQ youth worsening in current 'hostile political climate', Self-care tips for irritable bowel syndrome. Like, what if I had to be in a place where my gender didnt align with something that somebody could immediately clock? To some people it feels a little dated, but I think that is really kind of the conversation that were having about the history of non-binary identity. Asia Kate Dillon is an American actress, producer, and director known for portraying various important roles in popular TV shows likeTaylor Mason in Billions andBrandy Epps inOrange Is the New Black. And I realized that once I tried to start learning more about non-binary, its like, Wow, we are so firmly, fundamentally wedded to this idea of this or that, male or female. Thats why today I really wanted to focus on when you are neither this nor that. And it can be really reinforced by our media. And if we are trying to award art that is representational of everyone, then we need to be representing everyone, and abolishing gendered awards is one part of the change that needs to happen., Elsewhere in the show, THR associate editor Abbey White discusses the genres where gender exploration has taken place the most: science fiction and, perhaps surprisingly, animation. It was very overdue. If a white character can do this, then well roll the dice on a character of color. Asia Kate Dillon, an actor with non-binary gender identity, was approached for the role of The Adjudicator, who exercised admirable agency in their request to have their character also be non-binary. And what does that mean? And sometimes youre just at the last door, which sounds terrible. Pats gender was literally the running joke. If youre pitching a show to an executive and an executive has a very rigid gender binary and doesnt really understand what youre saying, you could just be like, Well, theyre not human, so why would they have that binary? And that is an easier way to get that through and have that conversation. I think one of the greatest gifts of trans and non-binary representation on TV less so on film, unfortunately is that by featuring people who do not exist inside the binary, it opens the door for cisgender people to break down their own toxic gender stereotypes and reimagine characters and people and what a man and a woman would look and act like and what kinds of roles they can get. Asia Kate Dillon, so compelling in their tightly contained turn in Showtime's Billions, makes little impression as Malcolm, save for a shock of bright purple hair. As an actor, as a performer, do you have any preference towards playing characters whose gender identity matches your own? And so, again, once somebody else opens that door, the door gets to open for other people. Since 1957, GQ has inspired men to look sharper and live smarter with its unparalleled coverage of style, culture, and beyond. But theres also something freeing about seeing a character who walks around and is comfortable with who they are. And there can be trans people who are very succinct and clear about what their gender is, and that can be very different than non-binary folks. But if you miss breakfast, its just snack food. The John Wick movies have always been very representative of all different kinds of people, whether its ethnicity or sexual orientation, and so it just felt really right for the world to have gender diversity as well. And I was like, Why am I so connected to this character? And then I realized that this character is upending gender norms. The last two questions we ask every guest, the first one is Hollywood Remixed, which is: Is there a prior attempt since we were talking about attempts attempt at a non-binary representation that you would request a do-over for? Asia Kate Dillon is an American actress, producer, and director known for portraying various important roles in popular TV shows like Taylor Mason in Billions and Brandy Epps in Orange Is the New Black. And thats something thats kind of imposed on children. [laughs] As Nina Simone said, its an artists job to reflect society. And Im certainly happy as a light-skinned white person to play an antihero onscreen, because we have so many examples of white people as heroes. But I also think that sci-fi and fantasy are about places of imagination and exploration, and in the same way that animation is this place where we do not have to exist within the limits of humanness, its an incredible place to explore lots of things, things that we want to see, things that we want to be. I will offer whatever support I can and continue to strive for a more loving and equal society. But there are shows now that I think are really stepping up and a lot of creators who are really careful and mindful, and its really meaningful for them because these were things they didnt have when they were kids. You tend to play characters who are emotionally closed off. This was such a pleasure. immyukily. "I don't think it will be too many more years," they say, "before. Abbey White: Yeah, Ive been here for a couple of months and this is our first meeting, so Im very excited about that. But tell me a little bit about animations role or presence when it comes to gender presentation and things like that. Not everyone identifies within the binary, they say. So thats GLAADs poll, and also people saw the movie and tweeted at me or messaged me and said, like, I cant believe theres a non-binary character in this movie. I mean, every press release that came out about the movie where I was talking about it, I was very upfront: This character is non-binary, it wasnt written that way, the studio and Chad Stahelski and Keanu, they loved it. I am one of those people and we won't be silent in the face of your attacks. Your characters get to do different things and they get to be different people, and thats because theyre not conforming to that binary. And I really think it is only a matter of time and truly not that long until the Tonys, the Emmys and the Oscars follow suit. Gender nonconformity has traditionally been a means of exploring horror narratives. You dont have to ascribe to this or that. It sounds so parochial, the Masons.. And I remember watching it as a little kid this is so wild when I think about my own gender journey and not really needing to ascribe a gender to Pat. They just know that this person appears in makeup and feminine attire, and a pronoun is never used. Its incredibly significant and the significance of it sits alongside something that is a bit difficult for me, which is the fact that according to GLAAD they have this poll about whether or not there have been any trans or non-binary people in a major Hollywood film because The Adjudicator, the character that I play, is never referred to as they/them, which are the pronouns The Adjudicator uses, thats what the script was changed to reflect that, it doesnt count as representation because nobody watching the movie knows that. Dillon, who uses the singular pronoun "they" for identification, spoke . Thats super helpful. Thank you for your courage, your generosity and ceaselessly working to make this world a more inclusive and compassionate place. So thanks for letting me (Laughs.). And even if theyre not coming with that, if youre getting non-binary actors, your vision of that character I think changes a little more because their identity can be so different from one person to the next. I think a lot of the womens movement is perpetuating the synonymous use of woman and vagina, and not all women have vaginas, not all people with vaginas are women. So theres also a famous Star Trek episode that deals with race, where theres a whole race of people and half of them have white on one side of the face and black on the other. And so and this is a statistic that Laverne Cox said in an interview a little while ago I think 85 percent of Americans say theyve only encountered a trans, non-binary, gender nonconforming person through the media. ", "[As a model], I definitely don't want to tell trans people that they need to buy things in order to fully come into themselves as a trans person. "Billions" and "Orange Is the New Black" star Asia Kate Dillon sat down with Ellen to discuss paving the way as one of TV's first non-binary gender identifyi. And I think that age actually does matter in relationship to Pat. Sun: Pat even got their own movie, didnt they? Why are men not allowed to access this characteristic just because its coded as feminine? Specifically as it pertains to gender identity. If I were being misgendered all the time and I didnt have the support of family, friends and co-workers, it would tear me down way more. They essentially do the thing that we often see men, male heroes, in cartoons do. Im a marginalized person because Im nonbinary, but I carry white body privilege. And I think thats part of the larger history around non-binary representation in film and television. And maybe its just like, Dont cast a cisgender actor in this role, or dont portray it in this way.. Its really quite extraordinary. So have you felt excluded, then, by the womens movement, and specifically the Womens March? Having a deep voice but also being pink, being feminine and masculine at the same time, having a body shape that sort of defies what women or men are supposed to look like was really, really appealing to me. But for my character, its different. What we need to do is get rid of mens and womens sections and make sections that are like dresses for tall people, pants for short people, jeans for people with hips, you know what I mean? Sun: It does. Dillon, 34, identifies as nonbinary, too, with the same preferred pronouns, a gender identity the Billions role helped them clarify. Last season, we got to learn a little bit more about Taylors past when Kevin Pollak recurred as your father. Suit by Homme Plisse Issey Miyake / Boots by Dr. Martens / Beanie by Obey / Hoodie, Dillon's own. So, Abbey, thank you for helping expand my understanding of this. On a recent afternoon, Dillon ordered a half-mug of coffee, also black, and reclined barefoot in the pillow-dotted loft above the shop. Thats a conversation about racism, and it feels weird, right? Its amazing how much, while prepping for this episode, I was like, Wow, its really hard to decolonize your brain from the gender binary. And it makes a lot of sense that Star Trek, based off of its founding principles that it has carried through its entire franchise over decades, would be progressive in conversations about gender. You could have an animated cartoon and you couldnt have two men kissing, but you could have a rabbit kiss a man, and that wouldnt be considered this alarming thing that immediately needed to be cut or censored. Are these more current animated series more intentional on the parts of their creators? I describe my gender identity as always sort of being this way. White: Its definitely interesting when you start to think about how aggressively gendered our culture is. Thats awesome. And its been awesome to see that so far, peripherally, they are integral characters to the storyline, the story isnt about their gender identity necessarily. Its a jean jacket. You know its interesting that people think that pants are masculine. And if so, how should they do it over? Dillon is non-binary and uses singular they pronouns. I don't feel like there was a mistake made. What is my frame of reference? And guess what, this character is non-binary. I dont want to give an excuse and say trial and error, but you do see a lot of errors on the interminable road of progress. I don't feel like I was put in the wrong body. Is it hard and challenging to play a character like that? "I feel overwhelming gratitude for the incredible people who have supported me along this journey. But at the same time, its weird to wrap around because the world is exactly the opposite, right? Thats a really powerful part of non-binary representation in media. But when someone is misgendering me repeatedly, even after Ive reminded them of my pronouns, then it becomes something else, and its pretty clear when that happens. White: Yes, exactly. Post Malone, Riz Ahmed, Josephine Skriver, and More on the Fly Way to Dress Down This Summer. Is Asia Kate Dillon Related To Matt Dillon. Some of it feels a little weird. The balance is too far on one side for now. Its not a perfect circle; theres animation thats not for kids and theres obviously kids content thats live-action. Sun: It is also great to see that spoiler alert when Taylor briefly breaks away and sets up their own rival firm for a while, basically Axe and Wags spent an entire season plotting how to take you down, but at no point did they entertain weaponizing gender identity against you or anything like that. And how would we talk about Pats gender and Pats partners differently versus when we did it then? They have accumulated good wealth from their acting career. Its worthwhile practice though. Sun: Im glad you mentioned that. I've spent my entire youth and life fighting against that. My mom was an SNL hound. Thank you very much. I interviewed a voice actor for a piece. How did you hear about the role on Billions? What I can think of as problematic is when non-binary characters are written and Im not saying Ive seen evidence of this but when non-binary characters are written without anyone consulting a non-binary person, whether it be actors they are considering for the role, but frankly it needs to happen before then. You know. And it is incredibly unfair and kind of limiting because it means that our stories are limited in and of themselves, but I do think that people of color are increasingly being represented. In 2017 and again, if you Google this, Im basically quoting but thats okay. Our Place's Beloved Always Pan Is Officially Ready to Get Baked, The Best Chef's Knives Are a Cut Above the Rest. I've been very transparent about my struggles with my body, and with a society that is constantly trying to contain me and label me and define me. It feels like it's prone to getting sensationalized. And while their portrayals may or may not have always been respectful, intentional, progressive, I think that this idea that we do not always live within two spaces on a gender line has been persistent. I can release she/her pronouns, I can use they/them. You're not beautiful despite those things, you're beautiful because of those things, and [believing] that has to be an active conscious process. It was just not a thing. Theres people made out of candy and lemons. Dillon identifies as non-binary and uses singular they pronouns. White: Yes! Its about making space for everyone. It is exactly the kind of conversation that I believe that they would it just rang so true for the characters, and I thought it beautifully handled a father who genuinely loves his child, genuinely wants to be there and to learn, and admitted within the scene that hes trying, you know? I love Taylor. The male/female categories uphold the gender binary, which is ultimately extraordinarily dangerous for anyone who identifies outside of it. And that creates a ripple effect for other gender identities. Do you feel like were finally starting to see real-world and more grounded representations, where you dont need to Trojan horse it into an allegory of a non-humanoid and say this is an alien, this is a soda cup or a car, but non-binary people can exist in practical reality in seeing these characters in more realistic shows? Like when you go to fast fashion stores and youre like, Im going to get this gender neutral piece of clothing, its not a skirt. But theyre also the first person to be in the room. What is shown in the story is you dont know that persons gender, and hopefully the lesson is, Dont assume. Dont assume someones gender just because someone is wearing makeup or dressed in historically feminine attire, whatever that means. I combed through this in the first half of this podcast with one of my colleagues who is non-binary, and theres not a long history. We want it to look hot. Dillon handles the encounter with grace and without judgement; they are one of the most chill, open-hearted, and patient people/actors Ive ever met. I very much do think they are. It wasn't the time for me to come out back then. No. They are known for playing Brandy Epps in Orange Is the New Black (2013) and Taylor Mason in Billions (2016). I know it saved my life years ago.". Asia Kate Dillon was born on November 15, 1984 in Ithaca, New York, USA. And so theres a character who comes out to Riker and says that they are actually a she, but then spoiler alert for a 30-year-old episode! I think that non-binary identity is still sort of fresh for much of the industry. It was most certainly a powerful part of my own journey with my gender, realizing that I did not have to be this thing because of the gender that was assigned to me and all of the baggage that comes with that. Since then, Ive had all different kinds of styles and colors, and for Orange Is the New Black I played a skinhead, so it worked for that. But I remember my first introduction to Adventure Time was actually watching a clip of Lumpy Space Princess, who is this deep-voiced, giant, pink, blobby, fluffy creature who has a lot of attitude and just doesnt really take anybodys crap. A voice faintly hollers in the background: Hollywood Remixed!. 2023 The Hollywood Reporter, LLC. And I was able to step into an identity, my non-binary identity, fully. I was just thinking about Alec Baldwin because hes on the current cover of The Atlantic, and I was just thinking that we have to be able to laugh at someone like 45. How incredible to have a nonbinary character show skin on television! Born Name Sun: How intentional I mean, its probably safe to assume that Looney Tunes, Chuck Jones and those creators werent necessarily conscious or fully cognizant of that but these latter-day animators, this current generation you mentioned Adventure Time. The creators, David and Bryan, both have children of various ages, and their kids would come home and be talking to them and say like, Yeah my friend is coming over, theyll be here at 6:00. And Brian or David would say Wait, how many people are coming? Or, They? It began as an organic conversation about their kids worlds and their kids friends, so when they were developing a character that was younger, who was an intern, it just sort of made sense to them to have that character be in this world. The discrimination towards trans people is rife, insidious and cruel, resulting in horrific consequences. Their role on Billions is the first gender non-binary character shown on American television. I think its the intent and the knowledge that goes into that and the level of sensitivity that actually ultimately matters. Asia Kate Dillon is a performer, writer and director residing in New York City. I think that Taylors wardrobe is actually just very human and very neutral. Dillon: I will play whatever part I am the right actor for. I love that you work with a non-binary person. But Pat was just minding their business and doing their own thing and was comfortable with who they were and their partners. Episode 24: Asia Kate Dillon Beyond the Binary, Intro music: Jaunty, upbeat chords interspersed with the sound of a DJ scratching a record back and forth on a turntable. Showtime had a meeting with everyone before my first day of shooting, so then it was just gently correcting people who were misgendering me, not on purpose. It's a good start. I felt really comfortable and safe this whole time, and that doesnt always happen. But do you think it was significant that Taylor hasnt had a major plot line thats been centered around trauma or bigotry or that type of experience? By continuing to use this website, you agree to our cookie and, Asia Kate Dillon Height, Weight, Age, Body Statistics, Lily Sullivan Height, Weight, Age, Boyfriend, Family, Biography, Clare McConnell Height, Weight, Age, Boyfriend, Family, Aksel Hennie Height, Weight, Age, Wife, Net Worth, Family, Paddy Kelly Height, Weight, Age, Spouse, Family, Biography, Estephania Ha Height, Weight, Age, Spouse, Children, Family, Faith Lianne Height, Weight, Age, Boyfriend, Family, Biography, Lucia Lachkovi Javorekov Height, Weight, Age, Boyfriend, Bio, Bringing about a wave of change and for making history by playing Taylor Mason on. When we think about religious groups that are less white, we see less representation. Sun: A lot of times when were talking about LGBTQ portrayals, it often starts with whiteness as kind of like level one. And I know that just from Instagram or reading something on Variety or Deadline or The Hollywood Reporter, thats the way that I learn about that. Cardigan by Maison Kitsun / Shirt and pants by Agns B / Beanie by American Apparel. I remember Danny Strongs character, Todd Krakow, making some snide remarks while he lost to you at the poker tournament. Im definitely still learning. 'Billions' Star Asia Kate Dillon Proves There's No Such Thing as Menswear The actor who plays Taylor from 'Billions' wears a seamless mix of clothes (labels like "menswear" and "womenswear". That also means that we can put you in dramas and comedies. I remember in middle school they were going to do Oliver! I was so excited to audition to play Oliver and then realized I couldnt, because I hadnt been assigned male at birth. Weve long had queer villains, but were getting queer heroes, queer love interests, smart queer people and strong queer people. And I think that were kind of hitting the tip of the iceberg of what was almost verging on a very metaphysical discussion about the separation between body and soul and things like that. Asia, thank you so much for joining us today. When you watch the show and look at the things that the people who work at Axe Capital have on their desks, they have old soy sauce packets or take out containers. Ive spoken to child development experts about childrens media and gender, and that binary in kids isnt inherent. I think there are a lot of valid criticisms of that character and what it laid the groundwork for and how it embodied a lot of harmful treatment of gender and non-binary identities in Hollywood. And also getting more creators who are non-binary. Non-binary people have always existed. No, I just had a lot of demons back then. I have always felt non-binary, before I had the language to conceive or communicate what that was to other people. And so I think one of the incredible complexities that the show holds about this character of Bobby Axelrod is that, as you said, hes all the things. Im remembering one of the earliest interviews you gave, I think it was on the Ellen show where you delineated the difference between the physiology of our bodies and I think what you called gender identity being what is between the ears. Something that is more about I dont want to put words in your mouth but I think more about a consciousness, it seems, rather than a biological expression? Taylors everything is very well manicured and particular. Asia Kate Dillon on Being Non-Binary Slaven Vlasic/Getty "Non-binary is a term used by some people, myself included, who experience their gender identity as falling somewhere outside the. I also think this conversation isnt just about who were seeing onscreen or larger cultural narratives changing. LGBTQ activists and allies have advocated for gender-neutral acting categories at major awards ceremonies like the Oscars and the Golden Globes. I feel like I can talk to Brian and David about anything, ask them anything. If there had been someone like Taylor on TV when I was young, it wouldve meant a great deal, Dillon says. This site uses cookies to serve you better. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/arts/television/asia-kate-dillon-billions.html, Asia Kate Dillon with Lance Reddick in John Wick: Chapter 3 Parabellum., I dont have to change my body, said Dillon. Dillon is non-binary and uses singular they pronouns. ", "[W]hen my friends and family call me Josie, it feels like I'm being seen. They spend a lot of times being the butts of jokes. Sun: Absolutely. Dillon: So you actually just gave an example of a thing that came to my mind that I want to say. Demi Lovato I think was the most recent really big announcement. It's a basic human right.". Sun: Lets go ahead and jump in then, since you brought up animation. I think about the concept of angels and demons. All of it to me is a great example of how it could go. I have always experienced myself that way. There are two non-binary characters on that show ones named Joey, the other is Lindsay. And in terms of Bobbie, as soon as I saw Bobbie on screen, I was just like, This is so much of what I have been asking for in the sense that this is a character that people clearly are not trying to force one way or another. All rights reserved. They dont waver. Steven Universe gets talked about a lot, and I think thats one of the reasons why. Of course, sometimes theres fried chicken, but both always tend to have quinoa salad, orzo salad, etc.. Orange tends to have more sweets, theres a little bit more sugar on the Orange set. White: Exactly my point. I had to learn who I was. Its so fun to play a character that doesnt use any machismo or bravado. Its a masterful way of showing a multidimensional, incredibly complex, awesome character that I think many performers would kill to play. I like sphere Ive been using the word spectrum, but I think sphere is even more encompassing of all the different identities that can fall within it. ", "Non-binary is a term used by some people, myself included, who experience their gender identity as falling somewhere outside the boxes of man or woman," the actor explained. Its called Mirror Fire productions. Billions season five is currently back and airing on Showtime on Sundays. Thats really all that they have. Do you ever have days where you dont feel like having the conversation? Asia Kate Dillon: When I looked up the word non-binary, it said, "An umbrella term for any number of gender identities falling outside the boxes of man and woman.". Sun: Thanks again to Asia Kate Dillon and THR associate editor Abbey White for joining us on Hollywood Remixed today.
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